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	<title>Comments on: Video Game Feminist of the Decade: or, when &#8220;You&#8221; is a girl</title>
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	<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/</link>
	<description>Exploring the value of games-as-iconography in art, literature, and popular culture</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 07:33:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Bechdel Test: Portal &#171; Bechdel Gamer</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-18760</link>
		<dc:creator>Bechdel Test: Portal &#171; Bechdel Gamer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2012 00:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-18760</guid>
		<description>[...] Video Game Feminist of the Decade: or, when “You” is a girl [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Video Game Feminist of the Decade: or, when “You” is a girl [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cypher</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-18374</link>
		<dc:creator>cypher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 11:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-18374</guid>
		<description>As someone who&#039;s looking into creating video games, this has me conflicted.

On the one hand, you have prospective female players that will feel alienated if all the interaction is very strongly gender-neutral.
OTOH, as per another commenter, some female players *want* to be treated in a gender neutral way, because they&#039;re not fond of the gendered treatment they receive IRL.

On top of that, there&#039;s a risk that if I do introduce non-trivial differences, I&#039;ll get it wrong.  

This is not to say this isn&#039;t something a valid concern, something which should be addressed, but more that, answering &quot;How do I reliably address that without offending people?&quot; is difficult.  
I think that&#039;s a lot of why you see games which are anti-sexist, but not feminist.

This post has got me thinking, and I&#039;ll keep thinking about it later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who&#8217;s looking into creating video games, this has me conflicted.</p>
<p>On the one hand, you have prospective female players that will feel alienated if all the interaction is very strongly gender-neutral.<br />
OTOH, as per another commenter, some female players <strong>want</strong> to be treated in a gender neutral way, because they&#8217;re not fond of the gendered treatment they receive IRL.</p>
<p>On top of that, there&#8217;s a risk that if I do introduce non-trivial differences, I&#8217;ll get it wrong.  </p>
<p>This is not to say this isn&#8217;t something a valid concern, something which should be addressed, but more that, answering &#8220;How do I reliably address that without offending people?&#8221; is difficult.  <br />
I think that&#8217;s a lot of why you see games which are anti-sexist, but not feminist.</p>
<p>This post has got me thinking, and I&#8217;ll keep thinking about it later.</p>
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		<title>By: christine</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-4491</link>
		<dc:creator>christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 17:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-4491</guid>
		<description>hehe i&#039;m writing an assessment on gendering in video games so this forum was so perfect for research, as i don&#039;t know very much about video games at all. Thanks girls and guys!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hehe i&#8217;m writing an assessment on gendering in video games so this forum was so perfect for research, as i don&#8217;t know very much about video games at all. Thanks girls and guys!</p>
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		<title>By: Jenn Frank</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3427</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenn Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3427</guid>
		<description>That isn&#039;t &quot;too much.&quot; Or even if it is, A) I hardly mind, and B) as I appended high above, the new, improved, print edition of this blog entry is really long now, so now it&#039;s like, ah! You&#039;ve barely quoted anything! High five!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That isn&#8217;t &#8220;too much.&#8221; Or even if it is, A) I hardly mind, and B) as I appended high above, the new, improved, print edition of this blog entry is really long now, so now it&#8217;s like, ah! You&#8217;ve barely quoted anything! High five!</p>
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		<title>By: Bakka</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3424</link>
		<dc:creator>Bakka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3424</guid>
		<description>I have written a post http://bakka111.wordpress.com/2010/06/16/some-thoughts-portal-2/ where I cite you at length. I am a little worried I might have quoted too much. Please let me know whether this is ok with you. If not I will edit it down more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have written a post <a  href="http://bakka111.wordpress.com/2010/06/16/some-thoughts-portal-2/" rel="nofollow">http://bakka111.wordpress.com/.....-portal-2/</a> where I cite you at length. I am a little worried I might have quoted too much. Please let me know whether this is ok with you. If not I will edit it down more.</p>
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		<title>By: Rotha</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3397</link>
		<dc:creator>Rotha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 17:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3397</guid>
		<description>I see and agree with your points here, but I find exactly this effect appealing when I play Fallout 3. It&#039;s part of the escapism, away from real life where I&#039;m defined as &quot;woman&quot; rather than &quot;person&quot; and where most of the things I am good at or want to do fall under the &quot;it will be tricky, but we might be able to make a special exception&quot; category. In-game, a boy says I&#039;m a big strong lady he wishes he could be like, and while it&#039;s just lazy writing, it makes me feel at home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see and agree with your points here, but I find exactly this effect appealing when I play Fallout 3. It&#8217;s part of the escapism, away from real life where I&#8217;m defined as &#8220;woman&#8221; rather than &#8220;person&#8221; and where most of the things I am good at or want to do fall under the &#8220;it will be tricky, but we might be able to make a special exception&#8221; category. In-game, a boy says I&#8217;m a big strong lady he wishes he could be like, and while it&#8217;s just lazy writing, it makes me feel at home.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Wawroski</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3326</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Wawroski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3326</guid>
		<description>Amen to the &quot;marketing deparment&quot; comment; Bioware seems to have the worst one of all.  I can never tell if a new game by them is going to be exploitative or socially innovative.  Btw- have you played Mass Effect 2?  It REALLY seems this time like they caved in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen to the &#8220;marketing deparment&#8221; comment; Bioware seems to have the worst one of all.  I can never tell if a new game by them is going to be exploitative or socially innovative.  Btw- have you played Mass Effect 2?  It REALLY seems this time like they caved in.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Wawroski</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3325</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Wawroski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3325</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m bookmarking this page for so many reasons!  I am writing a term paper this semester about viewer identity in video games.  Also, I&#039;m very conflicted about Mass Effect 2.  As Rob Marney mentioned, Bioware tends to handle gender issues well.  Why would they suddenly regress by filling ME2 with oversexualized, inflatable women?  

I suspect there is a force in the industry that pushes for games to act this way, despite the massive success of the more inclusive Wii.  Who wants to think up conspiracy theories?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m bookmarking this page for so many reasons!  I am writing a term paper this semester about viewer identity in video games.  Also, I&#8217;m very conflicted about Mass Effect 2.  As Rob Marney mentioned, Bioware tends to handle gender issues well.  Why would they suddenly regress by filling ME2 with oversexualized, inflatable women?  </p>
<p>I suspect there is a force in the industry that pushes for games to act this way, despite the massive success of the more inclusive Wii.  Who wants to think up conspiracy theories?</p>
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		<title>By: Esoteric Articles</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3288</link>
		<dc:creator>Esoteric Articles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3288</guid>
		<description>I see what you are driving at, it is a bit of a shock to have a female avatar in an FPS. I must admit I was suprised a little simply because I just presume my avatar in an FPS is a male, which is precisely your point isnt it Jenn?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you are driving at, it is a bit of a shock to have a female avatar in an FPS. I must admit I was suprised a little simply because I just presume my avatar in an FPS is a male, which is precisely your point isnt it Jenn?</p>
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		<title>By: Bernkastel</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3264</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernkastel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3264</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but I would say about 80% of players are too busy thinking &quot;WOW a magic door just opened in the wall in front of me! Let&#039;s go through it!&quot; to look. XD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, but I would say about 80% of players are too busy thinking &#8220;WOW a magic door just opened in the wall in front of me! Let&#8217;s go through it!&#8221; to look. XD</p>
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		<title>By: Jenn Frank</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3260</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenn Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3260</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I wasn’t shocked by Chell being female at all. I was shocked by how artificial she was, now that I could see the unrealism of the first-person-shooter conceit.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

OK. You&#039;re not really selling me on our disagreement, though, because I think this is pretty right on.

I think what I&#039;m saying is, I like the artificiality of Chell because she really is just a skin, a representation. I could roll with that artificiality because the game was only telling me, &quot;Hey! This is what you look like,&quot; instead of &quot;Hey! Here&#039;s who you essentially are,&quot; and so I still felt authentically like me, myself, me, hence my whole argument about projection and the seeming authenticity of blank-slate characters. While I think I get where you&#039;re coming from, for me, the trick works, rather than being a tacked-on gotcha. (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3211&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Above&lt;/a&gt;, a couple folks note that the reveal maybe isn&#039;t a &#039;gotcha&#039; at all, or that the game shows its full hand from the get-go, which I&#039;d stupidly never noticed.)

So &lt;em&gt;Portal&lt;/em&gt;&#039;s conceit -- that&#039;s a good word for the reveal, and I&#039;m filching it from you -- really does ring truer, for me as a female player, than maybe a female avatar might in a gigantic Bethesda world, in which everything is so anti-gendered as to become disingenuous. (I know I&#039;ve started repeating myself, so I don&#039;t think I have too much more to give; &lt;a href=&quot;http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=1226#comment-1972&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;over here&lt;/a&gt;, someone makes an articulate comment I really appreciate about NPCs and &quot;othering.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I wasn’t shocked by Chell being female at all. I was shocked by how artificial she was, now that I could see the unrealism of the first-person-shooter conceit.</p></blockquote>
<p>OK. You&#8217;re not really selling me on our disagreement, though, because I think this is pretty right on.</p>
<p>I think what I&#8217;m saying is, I like the artificiality of Chell because she really is just a skin, a representation. I could roll with that artificiality because the game was only telling me, &#8220;Hey! This is what you look like,&#8221; instead of &#8220;Hey! Here&#8217;s who you essentially are,&#8221; and so I still felt authentically like me, myself, me, hence my whole argument about projection and the seeming authenticity of blank-slate characters. While I think I get where you&#8217;re coming from, for me, the trick works, rather than being a tacked-on gotcha. (<a  href="http://www.infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3211" rel="nofollow">Above</a>, a couple folks note that the reveal maybe isn&#8217;t a &#8216;gotcha&#8217; at all, or that the game shows its full hand from the get-go, which I&#8217;d stupidly never noticed.)</p>
<p>So <em>Portal</em>&#8217;s conceit&#8212;that&#8217;s a good word for the reveal, and I&#8217;m filching it from you&#8212;really does ring truer, for me as a female player, than maybe a female avatar might in a gigantic Bethesda world, in which everything is so anti-gendered as to become disingenuous. (I know I&#8217;ve started repeating myself, so I don&#8217;t think I have too much more to give; <a  href="http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=1226#comment-1972" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">over here</a>, someone makes an articulate comment I really appreciate about NPCs and &#8220;othering.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Marney</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3254</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Marney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3254</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t shocked by Chell being female at all. I was shocked by how artificial she was, now that I could see the unrealism of the first-person-shooter conceit. But a female player character? I&#039;d been picking those since Samus Aran and Chun Li, so it was only expected.

A feminist game is Dragon Age, where NPCs are constantly ignoring or flirting with you, but you can still accomplish the exact same story-wise.

An anti-sexist game is Mass Effect, where nobody seems to care that your character is male or female, except the marketing department.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t shocked by Chell being female at all. I was shocked by how artificial she was, now that I could see the unrealism of the first-person-shooter conceit. But a female player character? I&#8217;d been picking those since Samus Aran and Chun Li, so it was only expected.</p>
<p>A feminist game is Dragon Age, where NPCs are constantly ignoring or flirting with you, but you can still accomplish the exact same story-wise.</p>
<p>An anti-sexist game is Mass Effect, where nobody seems to care that your character is male or female, except the marketing department.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Povirk</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3230</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Povirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3230</guid>
		<description>You saw Chell at the very beginning of portal. Right when the very first portal opened. Weren&#039;t you paying attention?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You saw Chell at the very beginning of portal. Right when the very first portal opened. Weren&#8217;t you paying attention?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3229</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 02:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3229</guid>
		<description>Wow, I completely missed that too. :D

(Great article, btw, Jenn)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, I completely missed that too. <img src='http://infinitelives.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>(Great article, btw, Jenn)</p>
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		<title>By: corbenfrost</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3215</link>
		<dc:creator>corbenfrost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 07:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3215</guid>
		<description>....BWAHAHAHAHA.

You know, I think your point still holds valid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>....BWAHAHAHAHA.</p>
<p>You know, I think your point still holds valid.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenn Frank</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3214</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenn Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 06:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3214</guid>
		<description>Wow. FML.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. FML.</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3211</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 03:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3211</guid>
		<description>Just to be fair, you can see yourself in the first room in Portal. The designers in fact stated in their GDC talk about Portal that you were intended to see yourself in the very first room, so you could make a spatial connection between the two ends of the portal. So. Yeah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to be fair, you can see yourself in the first room in Portal. The designers in fact stated in their GDC talk about Portal that you were intended to see yourself in the very first room, so you could make a spatial connection between the two ends of the portal. So. Yeah.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Maly</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3208</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Maly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3208</guid>
		<description>At the risk of latching on to the least relevant point, I always thought that the gazelle legs weren&#039;t for explaining the jumping ability (which isn&#039;t all that special) but for explaining the surviving falling FROM A VERY GREAT HEIGHT ability. &quot;See, these shock absorbing spring things are the reason your bones aren&#039;y jelly after recursively falling through hundreds of storeys worth of air.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of latching on to the least relevant point, I always thought that the gazelle legs weren&#8217;t for explaining the jumping ability (which isn&#8217;t all that special) but for explaining the surviving falling FROM A VERY GREAT HEIGHT ability. &#8220;See, these shock absorbing spring things are the reason your bones aren&#8217;y jelly after recursively falling through hundreds of storeys worth of air.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3206</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3206</guid>
		<description>I believe that the developers mention in the commentary that the leg-extensions exist to explain why Chell doesn&#039;t take falling damage, even when falling for the subjective equivalent of miles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that the developers mention in the commentary that the leg-extensions exist to explain why Chell doesn&#8217;t take falling damage, even when falling for the subjective equivalent of miles.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://infinitelives.net/2010/01/16/video-game-feminist-of-the-decade-or-when-you-is-a-girl/#comment-3203</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.infinitelives.net/?p=2521#comment-3203</guid>
		<description>That was really great, I appreciate it a lot, and I&#039;m too drunk to say anything more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was really great, I appreciate it a lot, and I&#8217;m too drunk to say anything more.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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